SU’s Declassified School Survival Guide: PWI Edition

Kailah: Hello, welcome to season two of Me / Us / U, I’m Kailah and this is SU’s Declassified School Survival Guide: PWI Edition.

In a school full of lawless squires, gross ginkgo berries, and an insane alumni network. The students on campus try to do the impossible and create a guide that will help you survive a PWI. In this episode of SU Declassified, you’ll hear from me, as I sit down with Jurnee Cooker as we deep dive into the trials of being a black girl on campus and how we foster community and hold space with one another.

Jurnee: Now I’m the vice president and I’m allowed to be a leader on the campus.

Kailah: Then you’ll hear from Jena Lui as she reflects on her culturally Asian background and interviews Madelyn Correllus and Desli Norcross who are Asian adoptees on campus together they dissect the differences in their lives and how they’ve been confronted with their race on campus

Desli: I was a little surprised that they didn’t share the shooting with me personally but I think it was because they didn’t want to upset me.

Kailah: Lastly, you’ll hear from Cara Weaver who sits down with rising junior Hannah Mackey and Amy Davis, the director of the CDI on campus as they discuss alliship and the hyper-visibility of POC on campus.

Cara: And I remember being blown away and being like this is something I’ve never had to consider.

Kailah: This is SU’s Declassified School Survival guide, PWI Edition

Kailah: Hello Jurnee!

Jurnee: Hi!

Kailah: So you’re a sophomore right, a rising Junior. I’m curious about when you think back to your first semester on campus how would you describe that experience or what are some moments that stood out to you?

Jurnee: My first semester on campus was really fun. I don’t know how to say this but, I feel like who I am is heightened here. And like, during my first semester here I had to take that into account and understand that. I’m so used to hanging out with my friends back home And I’m so used to being around a lot of people that look like me. So like being here (at Susquehanna) and being around a few people that look like me and then everyone else not looking like me was a big adjustment. But it wasn’t that big of an adjustment Because I went to a predominantly white school where me and my brother and a few other kids were the only black people in the school, let alone in the grade. So like, I did not want to come here at first because I thought it was going to take me back to those moments when I felt so alone. You know what I mean? So, coming here, it was heightened. But it was heightened to an extent where I felt like I was alone because I did find those small communities. My freshman year I joined Sigma Gamma Rho, which is an historically black sorority. So I found those small things that helped me feel like I was a part of something.

Kailah: Wow I love that. I definitely relate. I was honestly like a cultural shock. It was pretty diverse at my high school in my middle schools. But overall I was very overwhelmed. Remember that first month thinking ‘oh my God why am I the only black kid in my class,’ that was unheard of for me.

Jurnee: Literally. It’s crazy because I know both sides. I don’t know why SU shocked me more than it did when I was little. I think when you’re little, you don’t understand that idea of ‘oh I’m different because of my skin tone’ until you start getting up in age and you start understanding that it’s more systematic than it is skin color. You know what I mean? That’s what I came through in my first year (at Susquehanna). I was like ‘oh okay, I’ve got to learn the game’

Kailah: So you talked a bit about finding communities on campus. You talk about SGRho or if you’re involved in the CDI. 

Jurnee: First semester, I was heavily involved with Black Student Union (BSU). That seriously helped me because we used to go (to BSU)  every Wednesday and that’s how I found the majority of my friends. Because we were all in a room, getting to know each other, we would talk about black issues without having to stray away from certain things or dim our light to let others shine. And we didn’t all look the same. It was never an If or when it came to SGRho. My sister is a legacy and founded the chapter on this campus. so when I got to SGRho and started to talk to them, started to develop sisterhood and stuff like that. That’s when I also started finding myself more because now I’m the vice president and I’m allowed to be a leader on this campus with no apologies. I can be unapologetic with myself as opposed to passing that off to other people because I feel like I’m not deserving. So those were the two big things for me. I did go to the CDI a lot during my first semester, just to hang out with my friends. But I think BSU and SGRho were the staple of everything.

Kailah: You talked about being involved in Psychology. I’m curious as to how that experience has been like for you — in your Honors and Psychology classes because there are so few Black Women on Campus.

Jurnee: With Psych and Honors, I find that I am always mostly the only Black woman in the classes. This semester, I did have about two other women that have been in my classes that were Black so, that was cool. But like, in Honors. I don’t know. I think I might be the only black person (in my year). I honestly don’t see anyone else or any representation in the Honors Program. Which can be kind of a disadvantage. The class I’m in right now it’s Honors Social Diversity, so it’s like to be the only person in the class that may be marginalized and a person of color, it’s kind of hard because I feel like everyone looking to me to ‘defend this’ and ‘tell us why this is bad.’ And at the end of the day, sometimes I don’t want to speak. Or sometimes I’m just tno ready to put my oppression on a stage and talk about everything. It’s not their fault. I think everyone in my Honors class is cool but sometimes in that class I feel like it’s my duty to say something because I’m the only person that looks like what we’re talking about. So that’s something that’s always in the back of my mind.

Jurnee: So that’s one of the things that is always in the back of my mind and then with psych like I just wish there was like a multicultural perspective psychology class —  I’m sure they’re there is but like probably just not offered or like they can’t get enough students or whatever the case may be but like just understanding why African Americans specifically do not get the help that they need because of the fact that like our community is so like mistreated and that’s why with higher institutions,  we don’t trust them and the stigma behind mental health (in the black community) comes from that like I feel like everybody struggles with something so I just wish that there was a class that kind of highlights like black psychologists or like just like the multicultural stop perspective as opposed to like European psychology and just talking about like the founders and you know people that we already know when we can go in depth about like who was the first black psychologist to like discover something.

Kailah: I’m just in awe — hearing you talk about this because you know, I’m a creative writing major I’m on the complete other side of the spectrum but it’s so interesting because I think you also kind of highlight this I think an issue just like the education system in general how we teach a history — usually you know associated with white men and white people in general and we say that that’s the history that is you know worth listening to. And I feel like a Black psychology class on campus that would be so interesting.

Jurnee: I think they’re offering it during the drop add. I think so because I saw it or a teacher mentioned it to me but I just that stimulated a thought in my mind because I’m like wow like there’s not a lot of psychology courses on this campus that like even in like my honors classes like no disrespect to the professors or anything like that but I wish we had more like black writers that we talked about I mean doctor Thomas, he’s so amazing because like in his class we read James Baldwin and like other black writers. And that kind of created a sense of like community and things that we needed to talk about in that class and like his class I wanna say he kind of spoiled me into thinking that like I would be reading more black authors and more diverse readings and then like I get to certain classes and it’s like all European perspective.

Kailah: You talked a bit about like being an honors and literally being the only kind of black person those classes I wanted to share this statistic because it really like I found it very interesting and I feel like we could both talk about it I found this article and like Thoughtco and it was saying how black Americans in the United States are like among those who are most likely to get a postsecondary degree but also like black women I’m make up over 50% of the number of black people who receive go secondary degrees so we kind of exceed in that regard. You talked a bit about this in your honors class and like you know feeling kind of some pressure I was curious as to how does that make you feel like what do you think about that?

Jurnee: Honestly, I think that that there’s something be said for that. Like Malcolm X said, the black woman is like the most dis respected person in America and I think that like it’s something to be said for the fact that we do exceed our expectations and our limitations and I think that like people know where power and tend to like diminish it because they know how far we can go and how far we can reach so honestly at first like I was thinking about dropping the honors program I’m not even going to lie. I think about it kind of a lot sometimes but then I’m like I’ve come too far you know like I I’m type person I hate like starting something and not finishing it I think it comes from my mom like she’s always telling me like don’t start something if you’re not going to finish it so like now that I’ve decided to continue on to graduation and do my capstone and do like honors full out like I kind of want to talk about that in my capstone because I think that our research is like dependent upon what we want to do and I just want to talk about like how like women they do exceed all expectations and I think that people don’t understand that because we’re kind of we’re taught to diminish ourselves because other people diminish us.

Kailah: Wow yeah that’s really powerful Oh my God! You kind of talked about this when we talked about your first semester on campus but I’m curious as to like what was I think a moment that was like the biggest culture shock for you.

Jurnee: I remember like during election that was a big thing for me because I felt like my experience with people who are prejudice were like I wouldn’t say surface-level but it was more so microaggressions as opposed to like outright racism and prejudice like when I was little like the kids in my school used to like pick on me for having big lips or like unkempt hair as they would say or like but like those are microaggressions like I felt like those were so surface but like when you see that somebody’s like beliefs political beliefs are like deeply rooted in someone who’s spewing hatred and racism. Like that was such a shock to me like I was a people actually had trump signs in their windows in like dormitories or in their windows on 18^th Street. It just was so weird to me because I was just like I just thought that it was so crazy. That was like the biggest culture shock for me because I’m like that’s like ridiculous like and I’m not even saying that people have to change their political views because whatever you believe in that you but, it’s like for you to believe in someone so much that you were like saying racist things being like bigots and like ignorant like that was so crazy to me.

Kailah: I honestly like I could never understand how a person’s ideology and beliefs being so embedded in someone’s identity that when you critique it and when you say ‘hey, that’s really like harmful,’ they kind of have a explosive response like that’s just so like crazy to me. And even like being on campus like you kind of know who might fall on which side of the political spectrum.

Jurnee: Yeah.

Kailah: And it’s just like it’s so it’s like at least like for me being in those spaces and like I know what like you being the only you know black girl in your stem classes and it being like kind of rare to have more like more than one black person in my class is now like an if it is it’s usually someone who you already know. I’m wondering, ‘oh I’m the only one’ or like ‘am I the only one?” Overall, there’s a lot of anxiety.

Jurnee: And even as a woman it brings even more anxiety and pressure because you could be named that angry black woman. I think that is something to be said for the fact that like I feel like everyone else can say what they want to say and like be angry and be validated in that but I feel like black women are like the most invalidated people when it comes to like what they believe in and what they want to say it’s always like why do you have to be so angry or like the whole sassy aspect of it and I just think that like no like this is what I believe and I don’t wanna be invalidated in that but it’s also like there’s anxiety not to say things because it’s like now I don’t wanna like pressure myself into being in that situation and also have others pressure me into understanding like I just I just think that like it’s not worth explaining to people who are like committed to misunderstanding you.

Kailah: Oh my gosh! That last part! Just so like you said, if their intention is to misunderstand you, like they don’t care and it’s even like worse when you’re in these spaces where you have to feel like you have to defend yourself. They’ll always critique the method in which you say what you say.

Jurnee: Yeah!

Kailah: It’s unfair how, for example white girls rage is valid like she has she has all this anger yes let it free but black woman we don’t get that luxury to just have that anger until you know?

Jurnee: Literally.

Kailah: I always think that college is kind of this coming-of-age experience so I’m curious as to how that might have unfolded for you.

Jurnee: so far I think that the shift in how I feel about myself happened with that culture shock. I think that before, when I was little, and I used to be in like predominantly white spaces like I used to try to shift myself. I used to wear like makeup that was like thousands of shades lighter than me for some reason, I used to try to like wear lipstick colors to fit in or straighten my hair and like little things that have to do with physicality. But like now that I’m here and I understand that like whether you hate me whether you love me like I don’t care. By being unapologetically myself in college I don’t change myself for anybody anymore. I would say that like I had like a different experience like it was kind of like a weird experience because I know some people would think that like a culture shock would make them change and mold and adapt and stuff like that but like for me it just made me even wanna be even more of a leader instead of a follower. I understand that like I don’t have to be any way that anybody else is because I’m not sounds like I could just be myself and so I think the change in myself was that like noticing for myself like you don’t have to be anything that you’re not if you don’t want to. Or if that’s not your prerogative like as long as you’re staying true to who you are because people like are literally that like not like you regardless and misunderstand you. Like I said, if somebody is committed to misunderstanding you no matter what you do it’s always gonna be that. So I think that like coming here, I understand that like I don’t have to be anything I’m not like when people say things about like my personality. Or like the best one is like the way I talk — people love to talk about the way I talk — like they’re like ‘oh you’re so proper’ or ‘oh you talk like a white girl’ and all this stuff but it’s like that’s just me.

Kailah: It’s just so nice hearing like you say it because like obviously like I know you and like I really I look ahead like a lot of this similar like kind of realizations coming to like college and stuff — in different ways in different fonts — but right it’s so true. Like I can’t stop thinking about you saying that like people could be committed to misunderstanding you mislabeling you and that’s nothing to do with you like you know. Knowing that someone’s opinion of you has nothing to do with you and is really freeing and I think it’s important, I think internalize that because specially being a Black girl like people like that’s their whole that’s your whole gig guess their whole job they Clock in Clock out they don’t they don’t care.

Jurnee: No literally an it’s like weird because it’s like why me like I see so many people on campus like do the weirdest things but it’s like when I’m on the phone it’s like ‘let me look at her like what is she doing ? Or like when I’m talking to my friends ‘Oh my God they’re together in the laughing like what does that mean’ like literally I feel like it’s such a stage. I feel like minding your business is like the best business you can be about.

Kailah: I love that!

Jurnee: That’s another thing, like I feel so watch like I feel like everything I do here is so conceptualize.

Kailah: It’s like you’re walking performance art.

Jurnee: Basically! I’m like, humans walk, you’re doing it! Wanna watch me? Ill watch you

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Jena: There are lots of things to consider when choosing a college. A huge factor will always be financial reasons, but as my high school career and finance teacher told me, we are young and have time to take risks. So, for me, as an Asian American from a family of immigrants, I should have focused on diversity. Except I didn’t. And I landed myself at a PWI, a predominantly white institution. I landed myself at Susquehanna University.

It became increasingly obvious that I was one of the few Asian students on campus. My friends and I searched up the demographics, and the Asian population makes up 1.8% of the student body. This sparked someone to say, “Two percent, represent” except we don’t even make it to the 2% mark.  

It made me wonder. Who makes up the 1.8% besides me? I ended up making three different categories. One, there are the Asians who come from culturally Asian families, like me. Two, there are the Asian adoptees, who usually come from white families. Three, there are the international students who tend to stick together.  

With the pandemic bringing awareness to the discrimination against Asians all over the world, I spent time reflecting on how it has been so long since I really heard from the Asian community. It took the pandemic for this sort of unity. So, coming from a PWI, I began to think that it is time to reach out to get some voices that we do not usually hear from, starting with a couple Asian adoptee voices.  

I spoke with Madelyn Correllus and Desli Norcross, who are both sophomores at Susquehanna University about their Asian adoptee experiences. I felt curious about their experiences with the pandemic and how they felt. For instance, Madelyn gave me an interesting perspective on how she felt throughout the progression of COVID-19 and the hate crimes against Asians.

Madelyn: I’ve learned a lot since the pandemic. I think that’s one of the things that forced me to reflect on my racial identity because it wasn’t something I thought about that much before, but I had a lot of time during quarantine. And with the rise in covid, that was something that was on my mind, so I learned a lot about the model minority myth and a lot of just the experiences of adoptees and Asian Americans in general in the United States. At first, I didn’t really think too much about it when covid first started. Obviously, it was a bad thing, but it didn’t really resonate with me completely. I knew it was happening, and it was an added thought I had when I left the house, but I think the shooting in Georgia really affected me more than I thought it would. It just seemed very dangerous because that could happen to anybody. That could happen to me, and it was very extreme—the shooting of six Asian women. I think that was sort of almost like a wake up call to me that that could happen to my friends or people I care about who are Asian or myself. 

Jena: Meanwhile, Desli showed that being an Asian adoptee may create a disconnect from what is happening. 

Desli: Becoming more aware of the crimes against Asian Americans specifically for that their ethnicity has increased my sense of awareness about my own identity and its importance because it makes you kind of want to stand up for your people in a sense. And I will—though I will say I’m not the most aware as in I can recite certain articles or everything, but I will say that thankfully by being close to other Asian Americans, they’ve been keeping me in the loop with what’s happening, and I do know that especially with the pandemic that a lot of Asian Americans are being blamed for the pandemic, as well as just other race hate crimes that have been happening such as the shooting that occurred recently. And it’s really sad, and it’s something that I would easily say a few years ago I never would have expected surprisingly even though I know that race crimes happen to every minority. But just becoming more aware about it now has definitely changed my perspective.  

Luckily, my parents are very involved in the Asian American news. I was little surprised that they didn’t share the shooting with me personally, but I think it was because they didn’t want to upset me so to say, which has its positives and negatives because I feel like especially as the person who could potentially be affected, I should know as much as possible. So if they get some news, they should tell me. But they definitely have—they are constant watchers of the news so they do know the hate crimes that are going on and tell me to be careful, to have my phone on me. They get me like a safety device that if I pull out a pin, a large alarm will come off, so people will be able to find me and stuff. This is another separator as being an adopted Asian American versus an Asian American who—whose parents came from Asia that my parents and family aren’t in any danger. My family is completely white, so this is something they don’t necessarily have to worry about. 

Jena: The disconnect the adoptees feel may increase when they go into college. That made me think about how, when I started college, I was dropped off in an unfamiliar place. But added with the unfamiliarity of individuals around me, it was a jarring experience. While trying to find my place, more than ever, I was craving diversity. I joined the Asian Cultural Association on campus, hoping to find people like me. And I wondered if the same thoughts applied to adoptees. So, I talked to Madelyn who shared her perspective as a college student. 

Madelyn: When I was coming into Susquehanna as a freshman or first year, I wasn’t really too concerned about diversity because I was used to it at home but not really from my own personal need ’cause I didn’t really connect with being Asian. I just liked being around people with different backgrounds independently of how I thought of myself. Something that resonated with me was the transition from high school to college because for everybody, that’s a big part of finding yourself and figuring out your own identity. But for the adoptee, it’s also realizing that you are Asian because a lot of adoptees grew up in white families and predominantly white schools, so they are just seen—they’re known by their peers and by their family members, but when you go to college, you’re seen as Asian first because people don’t know your background and you don’t really tell people that you’re adopted. It’s not usually the first thing you say so just being seen for your race and being treated that way was a wake up call to many adoptees, including myself, and it helped to make me think more about what it means to be Asian.  

We have to remember, in minority communities, that everybody has their own experience too. There’s no set like age and experience. My Asian experience is not typical since I am an adoptee, so when I think about the typical Asian experience, and I think when a lot of adoptees do, we think about speaking the language the difficulties of maybe immigrating into the United States since that comes with its own challenges, eating ethnic foods at dinner and having that community. I think fitting into that cultural community is a little bit isolating for adoptees since they don’t fit into that community completely but also appearance wise like I’m Asian and everyone will perceive me Asian, so I think that’s definitely part of what it means to be Asian to me. 

Jena: Madelyn made me question what being Asian meant, and I had the opportunity to pose the question to Desli. 

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Desli: You’re not an Asian American who lived through stereotypical or traditional Asian experiences. You lived in kind of normally a, from what I’ve been talking to my other adopted friends, a very white kind of upbringing, so this kind of impacts your own perceptions, and therefore, it’s harder for me to identify with people who have grown up in traditional Asian households. But also, because I am an Asian American, I can’t also fully identify with white society, so you’re kind of in an in-between state. But people have given me positive reaction when I explain my adoption, and I know that it’s a sensitive topic for some adoptees. They can have some bad memories with their adoption process, but I was lucky I was with a good agency, and I was placed with a good family, so I’ve never really had problems with talking about people, but I  believe that these different experiences and levels of sensitivity can make adoption a difficult topic for some people. Essentially, with ethnicity-wise an Asian American is Asian American, but this adopted aspect can sometimes have a cultural divide I want to say with the differences in experiences. But the same time, I feel like in Susquehanna that I’ve been able to use that kind of to my advantage because after meeting other adopted Asian Americans, and it’s something that you can talk about that’s in common, and I’ve been able to bond with people through that as well as my Asian American identity. So I say that in some cases it can be a little difficult when grappling with situations that might pertain to specifically one of the groups more relevantly than the other, but overall, I feel like I’ve been able to use both sides of that identity to be able to connect to both parts of the Asian American identity in general. 

Jena: Overall, diversity is so important because there is always someone out there who will understand us. Our situations may seem unique, but there is something similar. For me, being Asian meant that I need to represent a part of me that I could never authentically explore because I was born in America, contrary to what some might think since I have been asked various times where I was from. If you want the answer, it’s Pennsylvania. I know! Shocker. But I was able to identify as an Asian despite the disconnect from my family’s home country. However, I do admit that maybe it was the fact that I lived with the culture and spoke the language that helped. Part of me really wants to have a better connection with my roots because it always felt like I was missing out. I was in my own in-between state. As I was talking to Madelyn, she reminded me of the importance of social media and its ability to connect people together. 

Madelyn: I learned a lot in the past year about the adoptee experience because I joined Facebook groups. And there’s lots of communities of adoptee, so I was able to hear their different experiences and their opinions about different things because most adoptees live in white families, in white neighborhoods where there’s not a lot of diversity. So one way we connect is through Facebook and other social media, and it’s great to hear everything they had to say, especially with feeling disconnected with culture just because of being racially isolated from other Asian Americans and other adoptees as well since the adoptee experience is unique in that we are Asian, but we were not raised culturally Asian.  

When I say I’m an adoptee, I feel like a lot of people don’t understand what that means because adoption is portrayed very negatively or even like as a joke in the media. So I have so much more to say to them about the experience and diversity and the disconnect from culture and just so much more to say, so I feel like whenever I tell someone I’m an adoptee, I also want to tell them all that stuff, which can be hard ’cause they probably don’t want to listen to me. But I feel like it needs to be said. Personally, I don’t and have never identified as white. My family is white, I was raised in a white family, but I don’t experience the world as a white person would because I am Asian. At the same time, I am not aware of the culture, the Chinese culture, or much of my background, so there’s that disconnect for a lot of adoptees also not feeling Asian enough but feeling too Asian white spaces, so I think that’s something that adoptees and also children of immigrants in America can relate to, and a lot of adoptees are really embracing their culture. And they’ll cook Chinese foods, and they’ll learn Chinese. Personally, that’s not something I’m interested in doing, but I think that’s great that they are. And right now, I really like identifying as an Asian adopting rather than trying to fit myself into being white or being Asian and feeling in between those two. 

Jena: But talking to  Desli reminded me that some people may not want to explore their original culture for the sake of connecting back to it. 

Desli: I would like to get to connect back to my roots, like visit my birthplace, but I wouldn’t say it’s purely for my roots’ sake. I  just generally am a person that is interested in learning about other cultures and travelling, so it’s kind of interesting like I definitely do see myself as an Asian American and like have fully embraced that part of myself, but I also feel like I personally embraced and see myself as an American as well, so I don’t feel such a kinship with my home country. I will see what is going on and stuff like that, but I would say my primary identity would be American first before being an Asian. 

Jena: I definitely don’t understand what it’s like to be an Asian adoptee, coming from a family who actually immigrated from China and Hong Kong. For me, my disconnect is mainly from the idea of I’m not really seen as fully Chinese by like people in China because I am like disconnected from their culture, yet I come to America and I do feel like an outsider sometimes because I’m different.

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Madelyn: I have a lot of knowledge now from reading. I have read a lot of different perspectives in the last year, and I want people to be open to hearing those things. I think sometimes it’s hard to get that conversation started, but if you do, I will talk a lot about it. And you can learn a lot, and I like learning things from other people too. It’s something I generally enjoy talking about. 

Jena: When it comes to learning, it is alright to ask questions. After listening to both Madelyn and Desli, they helped me understand that we are all learning from each other. 

Desli: If you’re curious about something, there’s no harm in asking about it, especially like if you have honest intentions about it because personally, I’m still exploring a lot about my identity, myself, and what it means to be an Asian American, but I really enjoyed having conversations with other people on their adoption experiences. Their other experience about being an Asian American because really, it can be so different depending on your background, on where you came from and those are all things that is important to remember especially if I mean there’s a lot as I said before there’s a lot of stereotypes surrounding Asian Americans, and while some of them might be true for some people, it would be just as bad with any other stereotype. It would be wrong to assume it for all—for every person of a certain ethnicity. 

Jena: Until now, I never got a chance to speak with many Asians, let alone Asian adoptees about their experiences. For me, I thought that we were riding along the same wavelength, that we had this hidden understanding about our identity. However, I was wrong because I have access to more of my cultural roots through language, traditions, and even food. These are the voices that made me think, “Wow, I never thought people felt this way.” It may not resonate with me, and I acknowledge that, but I continue to think about the voices that have been quiet, the voices that deserve a space to be heard.

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Cara: Previously in the episode, you’ve heard from Kailah and Jena as they interviewed students about their experiences on a PWI. Jurnee shared advice with us as a Black woman in STEM, emphasizing that minding your own business is the best business. Jena interviewed multiple Asian students that are all in different situations and highlighted the ways in which they navigate campus and the challenges that come with it.

Based on those, I want to use this segment to explore allyship and understanding while attending a PWI. The biggest thing to remember is that the conversation about what makes a good ally changes every single time you have it. Everyone has a different opinion in the matter, whether it be what terms are appropriate to use or what books we should be reading to educate ourselves. The truth is, there’s no “real” answer.

I wanted to talk to people who had experience with this subject, specifically starting with Amy Davis, the Program Coordinator at Susquehanna’s Center for Diversity and Inclusion. She works with supporting and advocating for underrepresented students as well as educating the majority culture on campus. She views this as a roundabout way to support the BIPOC and LGBTQ+ populations by helping their peers better themselves in the way they interact.

Using what I learned from my conversations from Amy, I also conducted an interview with Hannah Mackey. Hannah is a Sophomore at Susquehanna, double majoring in Creative Writing and English: Publishing and Editing. She is a student in this podcast course and is working on the D&D episode of Me/Us/U.

Cara to Hannah: One of the things I was thinking of when I first was making the questions is you mentioned, actually in our group chat a while ago, you said something about how many people of color were in your class and you were talking about that and being excited about it.

And I remember being like, this is something I’ve never had to consider. Could you just talk a bit more about what that’s like and what starting new classes is like for you?

Hannah: Yeah, I think I became more aware of it this semester, especially because I’ve been off campus for so long. I did go to a predominantly White institution growing up, literally my whole life  It wasn’t too much of a shock but I think when I really looked at my classes…and, when I pick my classes, I don’t think, “how many Black people are going to be in this class?”, I just take the class because, I try to see like “do I need to take this because it’s required?”… And I already know that, you know, going to a PWI you already are going to get spaces that are predominantly White. That’s just how it is.

But I didn’t really realize it until there was a class that would put 30 people in it. That’s my American Dream class, which I love very much. It’s a history class and I enjoy it a lot, but, there’s like me and two other people that are students of color in the class. It doesn’t feel like our voices are getting overshadowed or anything like that during class, but it definitely does stand out and it’s very prominent when I’m like focusing on the class. I’m like, wow, that’s a lot of White students *laughs*

And, I think it just makes you feel more alienated from everyone else. Like I feel like I have to speak out more and like participate more and know more and be more careful about standing out at the same time, if that makes sense. Because I think more attention will be called to me because I’m the only girl with an afro puff in her class and the only girl with like whatever, I’m the only girl with brown skin in her class. So, that’s the other thing I think I feel a little bit more isolated and I feel like I have to be like more extroverted, more outgoing, than I normally am when I’m just talking with people and things like that.

Cara: This idea of visibility and feeling like they’re being asked to represent their entire identity is something that I remembered talking to Amy about. I had asked her specifically how to frame my questions in a way that avoided the common mistake of making people feel like spokespeople.

Amy: Finding a way to incorporate an opportunity for students to tell a story if they’d like to. I think folks so rarely have the opportunity to hear that. To say, “listen, this project is so important because, you know, we want to shed light on these experiences. But I acknowledge that to move through this campus, it’s kind of straddling hypervisibility and invisibility, right? So, there’s never kind of just existing”.

Cara: She encouraged me to go deeper with this conversation, asking them about specific classroom interactions that they’ve had and how they felt about how they were handled.

Hannah: During my first semester, I was in a class and we were workshopping pieces, and I was talking about a specific student’s piece that I really enjoyed. And the moment I said like the first two comments, I was told by the professor basically just like “you’re talking too much. We’re going to move on to another student”, ’cause I was, I guess I was saying too much, and I guess it was more so that I was just very excited to talk about the piece.

But there was another student in the class, who was White, and she would go off on tangents. And it just made me very confused like “why not cut her off? Why do I have to be cut off?”. So, sort of after that moment, I just stopped like raising my hand in the class. I was just like, “well, I don’t want to be called out like that again, because that’s sort of humiliating”. So, that sort of drew me back from participating. And I’m sure like the professor, that they weren’t trying to be super intentional, like trying to point me out and single me out. But it definitely felt like “you’re gonna let this other student sort of go off, but like the moment that I say a few things it’s like, ‘we’re gonna move on to the next student’”. I think it’s mainly because I was raising my hand a lot in the class to start off, even though no one else wanted to start off.

And I’m the kind of person work if no one else is going to participate, I might as well participate. And if you don’t want to call me, you just don’t have to call me. So, I felt like it didn’t need to be as big of a thing as it was. But yeah, I’ve had more incidents I can think outside of the classroom than I think in the classroom.

I mean, my roommate, who I will not name. She is White, and there was one time where she was asking me about a friend that she had that was Black and she was saying how, oh what did she even say, like “you can’t get sunburnt because you’re Black” or something like that. And the friend took offense, I think, and she was asking me why and I was like, “once again, girl, I wish I could tell you. I have no idea how to answer that” *laughs*.

So, there was that moment. There was a moment where she brought someone over, a friend. And she was gossiping and talking about another student; which I don’t like talking about people, I try to avoid it as best I can. But, talking about another student, who happened to be Black, and she prefaced a sentence by saying, uh, what did she say, it was like along the lines of, you know, like the people that are like “I’m not trying to be racist” or something like that. And that immediately was like “oh something mildly racist”- well I guess there’s no such thing as mild racism- “something racist is about to come out of her mouth.” So, there was that moment as well. And that made me uncomfortable because I was like, I don’t even want this girl in my room. But, yeah, there were like little things like that.

There was an incident where I was talking to another student and she was going on a rant about why her, and she called her friends “colored” which, big indicator, maybe something’s wrong here. And she was upset because she was like “I don’t understand how I’m just as poor and broke as my colored friends, but like, I’m considered privileged”. Didn’t know how to answer her, felt so uncomfortable, I was like…

And now, with the instances and like the things that I faced up until this point, I think I would have, now where I am, I would have said something. But, in the moment, you kind of don’t know what to do.

I mean there was another incident where a student basically called me the n-word. I won’t get into that ’cause I can’t get into much detail with that. But there was that incident. I had to report it and it was a big thing. And, you know, that affected me too. So, there are many different scattered experiences that I’ve had with microaggressions and just straight up racism. And people are like “context matters”, but, in reality, context doesn’t matter when it’s just you on a, it feels like it’s you versus the world, I guess, when you’re on a campus like this.

And you think “I know what I’m gonna do when I face this situation,” and then it hits you and you don’t know what to do. Like there’s no “how to treat racism” manual. You kind of just have to deal with it as it comes to you. You think “I’m just gonna fight them right then and there”, no. I was just more in shock than anything else and didn’t know what to say.

Cara: One of the things I knew I wanted to ask specifically was how they think allyship should be handled. In both cases, the emphasis was placed on human interaction and communication. It was interesting to hear from two perspectives that have different experiences with allyship. Amy outlined some of the ideas she has picked up from her own research and work over the years, saying that she views it as a three-step process.

Amy: First, it really starts with understanding your own positionality. You know, self-awareness: being aware of who you are and how you move through the world. I always tell students it’s like we have these lenses on and we can never take them off. And those are all of the things that make up our identity. So, I can never move through the world without the lenses that I wear as an adopted, Colombian, Woman, etc., etc., etc.

I can, however, become more and more aware of those lenses and what those lenses mean, and recognize that I interpret all of the experiences and all of the behavior of others through those lenses; We all have cultural perspectives, that we don’t exist in a vacuum, and in that even confronting like our own personal biases.

After that, I think this idea of education and understanding and exploring of other perspectives and other cultures and other individuals is really important. As we seek to understand and learn, this is also where we do some reading, you know.

There are so many good books out there. “What Does it Mean to be White” by Robin D’Angelo, or “How to Be An Anti-Racist” (by Ibram X. Kendi), or “Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?” (by Beverly Daniel Tatum). Educating ourselves through conversations, and reading, and film, and all of these areas that we can.

And then, finally, is sort of that application. And that’s the messiest, because it involves interaction, and we can only ever control one person and that is ourselves.

So, I always tell folks when I’m training as well, there is absolutely one guarantee in diversity and inclusion work, and that is that you will make mistakes. And I have done this for over a decade, this kind of work, and I make mistakes all. the. time.

As you’re working toward becoming an ally: you’ll say the wrong thing, ask the wrong question. All of these things that can come up. So, I think the biggest commitment that we can make is to stick with it even when things become uncomfortable. A true ally is humble and willing to accept that mistakes are part of this important process. Ask the questions and not to make it about ourselves either. So, when we make that mistake, humbly moving on, not make it, “oh my God, I can’t believe I did that. I’m so sorry,” you know? Not drawing this extra attention.

And so, I should say too, with application, it’s not just about being humble and making mistakes and owning mistakes. For me, the absolute crux of that is real relationships, deep relationships. Nothing takes the place of real, meaningful relationships, and so again, that’s part of that third tier.

Cara: I posed the same question to Hannah and she talked about how there’s no wrong or right answer, it’s up to the situation.

Hannah: I think the biggest thing to be aware of is just- because I don’t want it to be eggshells that people walk on all the time. I know there’s already people who are like “do I say Black or do I refer to you as African American?” And some people will say Black, some people say African American. But not every Black person is African American, and not every Black person wants to be referred to as Black. So, you kind of have those distinctions, you have those little things as well.

So, I think the biggest thing that you can do is to, one, be transparent, to ask. I think the issue with, obviously, at least for me, I don’t want to constantly have to educate White friends or anything like that as to what they should and shouldn’t do. I think sometimes it’s obvious, but I think there is sometimes people want to be careful. So, I think it’s just good to be transparent with your Black friends, Black students. Like if you have a question, frame it in a way that’s not making them seem like they are the spokesperson for all Black people, as well.

 I get how that can be hard, but I think there’s so many resources and things online that sort of help you sort of negate that and help you avoid some of those questions about “can I do this?” or “can I say this?” or “what would you like to be referred to as?” and things like that.

And I think the other thing is, don’t alienate Black people in spaces. I think that’s the other thing like don’t single people out. I think this goes for any person of color but, more so speaking from the, at least for myself, I wouldn’t want to be singled out or embarrassed or anything like that. It definitely messes with me, I mean; I already have like anxiety and things like that. I think that sort of plays into it so there’s that as well.

And just like, listening, that’s the other big thing. Listen. If you are called out by like another Black student or something and they say, “hey, you’re not supposed to say this”, or “hey, you shouldn’t have done that”, just listen. And that ties into white fragility, where a lot of White people would be like “whoa, I wasn’t trying to be racist”. It’s like OK, maybe you weren’t trying to be racist, but your action was racist, or your action was prejudiced. I think people have to really examine themselves and reflect on themselves in realizing that. That, no, you may not be a racist individual. You may have grown up in the best home, you may be a liberal, you may be whatever. That doesn’t mean you’re not going to be not prejudiced and not racist.

So, if someone says, “hey, you just did something or said something, that was offensive”, listen. Don’t start like apologizing or crying, it’s like- don’t make it about yourself. Just take that time as a learning moment, a stepping stone, and move forward. Just move on. It’s okay. Racism isn’t okay, but if you slip up and you say something and someone corrects you on it, don’t harp on it. Don’t think “oh they’re gonna think I’m racist now”, no. You know, ignorance plays a big role in this as well.  We’re not going to know everything, we’re not gonna know what’s comfortable around everyone.

Cara: Although making mistakes is unavoidable, something that both Amy and Hannah emphasized, I wanted to make sure that going into this segment, I wasn’t making any mistakes that could be easily avoided. One of the things I realized when I did a lot of self-reflection was that I used rely on the people of color in my life to educate me on how to be a better ally. Looking back, that’s not the best way to go about things. And it’s not fair to them. So, I wanted to ask Amy about things like this that would be good to keep in mind while interviewing students. I also asked what conversations she has had with students of color about this in particular and their interactions with allies. She emphasized focusing on the individual, not just one part of their identity.

Amy: Historically underrepresented students can be very tired of educating and so I think the more specific questions you have, the better. You know? Because there is an emotional labor and a mental labor that comes with explaining things. You know, for me it’s my job, right? And so, I enjoy it, this is what I signed up for, I love having conversations and thinking about that and training.

And so, for our students who willingly agree, they often are doing that because they have something to share. But even for those students, I think, you know, really asking specific questions that show that you’ve already put thought into, and even have some level of understanding of what they might be experiencing can be really helpful.

Cara: I brought this idea into some of my ending questions for Hannah. I wanted to give her space to talk about intersectionality and how often it is overlooked. I asked her if there were any other parts of her identity that she felt had affected her experiences here since there isn’t often a space to talk about the overlap.

Hannah: Oh yeah, I think being a Black woman in itself is also a very different experience. And, on top of mental health, I’ve struggled with depression and anxiety. And I don’t know if you could consider it as a disability, I guess it depends on the person, but I have like undiagnosed ADHD. I’ve gone to doctors and they kind of are all kind of saying the same thing. I just haven’t gotten officially tested for it. Like, it’s there, that’s what they’re a lot of them are pointing to. But I think all of that does play a role because in the Black community there is an…how can I phrase this? There’s not a lot of space to talk about mental illness. There’s not a lot of space to talk about, especially like sexuality.

I do think that there’s a lot of homophobia and that there’s a lot of toxic masculinity. And a lot of this you can link back to past, and you can link it back to the oppression that we’ve kind of faced, but I do think it’s very rampant. And there are plenty of trans Black people that get killed and murdered and things like that, you have to be on your toes. There’s Black men who are gay and they are like ostracized from the community. So, I mean, there is a lot of inner working stuff on top of the outer stuff that we have to deal with that is affecting us sort of intersectional-ly, and I think those are worries that I definitely have.

So, I think that hasn’t like majorly affected how I go about campus. I think I’m very careful about walking around at night and things like that ’cause I think there is a more element of danger if you’re a minority on a predominantly White campus, especially a female minority.

Yeah, I kinda went off the rails with this question *laughs*, but I feel like there’s just a lot to cover when it comes to intersectionality in the Black community. Once again, I mean, I don’t speak for every Black person but I think that’s how I’m viewing it and how I sort look at it, I guess.

Cara: At the end of the interview, I wanted to finish by asking Hannah what she thought was most important for someone to take away from listening to this segment.

Hannah: I definitely want people to take away the fact that you, just from the outside of a person, you don’t know everything. It’s not good to make assumptions about a person just by looking at them. You don’t know what struggles they’re going through. You don’t know what privileges they have, and they don’t have. And, more specifically with students of color.

So, I think, what people should take away is just recognize and reflect on how you’ve sort of treated and talked to and acted around other students of color on campus. And I guess re-evaluate it if you feel that you’ve acted in a way that was representative of like White fragility and being offended that someone called you out on something. And being aware that you shouldn’t step around like there’s eggshells all over the place. It’s good to be honest and to ask about things. It’s better to ask and accidentally say something that ends up turning really south, so I think that’s important to consider.

Just being transparent and then listening when someone tells you something, is talking about their experience, not every moment is going to be a moment where you have to be like giving them solutions for problems. Some problems are literally going to persist, probably for the next many, many decades. Some problems aren’t going to be fixed just by being an ally. Sometimes the best thing you can do as an ally is listen and amplify the voices of the people around you instead of talking over people or assuming things. Just make sure that you are providing the tools necessary that other people need so that their voices can be heard instead of overlooked.

 

Kailah: After our separate conversations Jena, Cara, and I decided to come together and reflect on what we had heard and learn during her interviews.

Cara: I think what stuck with me the most was definitely when Amy said the thing about hyper-visibility and straddling the line like invisibility and hyper visibility, and how there’s never kind of just existing. That’s something that I’ve never really had to consider so, hearing it from her and then using that going into my interview with Hannah and then having Hannah bring it up again before I even like got the chance to ask her about it —  I think that was really interesting and it kind of proved how that is very prominent for a lot of people on campus.

Kailah: Yeah, I definitely agree. It made me think about like when I was talking to Jurnee and you know being the only black person in the class can be very overwhelming. Because you do have that level of hyper-visibility. And in those spaces, you know you don’t know what people are thinking but you know that you’re the only black person and, in that like, she said she feels like she has to speak up on certain things. I remember listening to that interview, and I was like that’s just a perfect way to like articulate how it feels because if you just go from one extreme to the next extreme.

Jena: iI feel like it was kind of similar for me in a way when I was listening to Madelyn and Desli talk. They don’t really realize their own identity so, they kind of created a new one for themselves because they’re stuck in this weird place of being in between. But when college came along and when they were meeting new people, they had to learn again about who they are, and I think that as you know as we’re growing up we’re going to always learn a bit more about ourselves and this time you know as they went to college they decided to take a step back and think about their experiences as an Asian too.

Kailah: At least for me like before I even came this to SU, I was always surrounded by people who look like me. You know, it would never have happened that would be the only black person that class like that was never heard of. And you see it happen to people who go to PWI’s and hear like ‘oh gotta watch out’ and I’d be like, ‘oh lol I can do it I could take it ‘and then it happens you’re just like whoa. It’s not something you’re ever fully prepared for.

Cara: yeah I think Hannah was talking about how she went to PWI’s like growing up basically she went her schools were always predominantly white but she said that she’s never even really like realized it as much as when she got here. She mentioned she’s in a class of like 30 people and there was like 2 students of color in the entire class. I can’t imagine the sort of told it that takes because it is like you’re being made into a spokesperson for your entire identity because I know she mentioned like when certain topics would come up everyone kind of looked at her and it was like it was that sort of thing. I just can’t I think it’s definitely important that we talk about it more because I also think that something Amy mentioned was that the majority culture and I can only speak for myself like isn’t aware of it as much. I learned so much just having these two conversations and, it’s just like if it was something we talked about more I feel like that could definitely be beneficial for everyone on campus.

Jena: And you know it shows that we all have our own stories to tell there are stories that we think that will align with us. Just because you know you know we look similar or something but at the end of day you don’t know someone’s story you have to really dig deep. Like my segment ends with us talking about how it’s OK to ask questions because that’s part of learning and sometimes making mistakes is part of learning too. We just have to move on from it and then take what we know now and then apply it to the future you know don’t let our mistakes kind of let us down and like you know go through all that guilt and stuff because we just need to keep on learning that’s it.

Kailah: I also think it’s important to point out like the fact that. you know, this is only our stories. They’re the only the ones that we can have access to. And there are like you know plenty of groups and communities that we’re not talking about this episode, but I think this is a start in a good direction.

Jena: When I was creating my segment, I realized that there are groups that I didn’t include. I do mention something about international students and I never got to speak with any of them. I also didn’t get to speak with many people who are from culturally Asian families, like me, so I realized that I am using my own experiences and applying that. But that in general, it’s the same for everyone, we all have our own individual ideas of what are kind of stories means to us.

Cara: All of our segments are very female-oriented and there is lot of difference in male experience on the campus and we just haven’t had a chance to touch on that.

 

Kailah: This has been another episode of Me / SU / U thank you for listening!

 

Music credits In order of appearance:

Broke For Free by Night Owl

Trash Ride by BigJoeDrummer

Spacey Song by I Speak Waves

“Above the Clouds” by Free Music

 

Further readings:

Michelle Obama, Race and the Ivy League

Susquehanna University: Inclusive Excellence

Campus Ethnic Diversity at National Liberal Arts Colleges

Contact Information:

Susquehanna University Center for Diversity & Inclusion – Lower Level Degenstein Campus Center

Dena Salerno – 570-372-4302 – salerno@susqu.edu

Amy Davis – 570-372-4590 – davisam@susqu.edu